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Over on gay.com, there’s a nice little write-up about our campaign. That feature, though, has produced a storm of debate amongst gay.com readers; you can follow it here: http://lifestyle.gay.com/2008/12/world-aids-day.html Be warned though, there is some real vitriol here, amongst the pleasantries and pats on the back.
One thing that the gay.com discussion reinforces is that while most guys seem to get the point of the HIVStigma.com campaign, our message is sometimes interpreted in unintended ways. One gay.com reader, for instance, says he’s looked at our web site and it’s “largely about HIV+ guys complaining that potential sex partners reject their sexual advances.” Another says “Yes, the campaign here in Toronto seems to focus on HIV+ men complaining that HIV- men won’t have sex with them”
Yikes! I hope not! There’s precious little evidence - not from the facilitators here or from those poz guys who’ve dropped by and left comments - that anybody is saying anything like this at all. Those so-called complaints just haven’t come up! And if they’re talking about our slogan “If you were rejected every time you disclosed would you?” I’d strongly dispute that’s at all what it’s about.
There have been also a few suggestions that our slogan implies we’re condoning the practice of not disclosing, condoning unsafe sex. I suppose people read what they want to read. And I suppose I should be ignoring these negative spins rather that commenting on them, but I am what I am.
I don’t want to ignore the fact that A LOT of the response to this campaign has been really, really good. That’s what I’m hearing. But the possibility sometimes crosses my mind that our campaign message is too obtuse for some, too subtle, too open to interpretation. So perhaps we need to restate from time to time that we’re talking about stigma here. It’s about stigma’s impact on HIV prevention, and it features and tries to engage both poz and neg guys in that discussion. It’s about the role that stigma has in transmitting the virus - including making it difficult for poz guys to disclose, including deterring others from getting tested, including preventing talking to each other about HIV.
The simpler version is that talking about stigma helps reduce it.
But going back to the gay.com discussion about our site, clearly that discussions highlights divisions within our community, which transcend poz/neg lines. It’s pretty clear from the gay.com discussion there is a fair bit of poz-phobia out there too, which also transcends poz/neg lines, And the disclosure issue in particular seems to be really, really divisive. (Which suggests to me we should be talking about it more, not less.) But is this just activists arguing heatedly, as activist often do, and that banter isn’t really representative of how Joe the plumber gay guy feels about things? Joe the plumber gay guy may not care much about HIV at all, in fact. I don’t know.
Anyway, read the gay.com discussion and see what you think. And come back here and talk about it.
Tags: community, disclosure, gay.com, sex, stigma
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December 5, 2008 07:46 AM
This is good. Thanks CoachBe, I’ll likely post something on that depression issue tomorrow.
December 5, 2008 05:16 AM
Yes It is a depressing topic However I think it will be lively, engaging and one I hope that all the moderators could participate in.
I am well prepared for that one. It will open some eyes. Perhaps a great topic would also be the ABPOs Multiple loss and the effects of depression on HIV, Stigma, and disclosure. The HIV community is bottled up and needs that release.
Bob I have also urged my friend Coach Michael to join the conversation he is a gay coach out of the US that is not living with HIV. He is a busy guy so let’s keep our fingers crossed.
Drew I wished to comment on your observation. I agree I think that there are clear differences between US and Canadian ways of dealing with problems. Look at Our TV vs theirs and our Politics vs Theirs.
Thanks for this observation.
December 4, 2008 09:15 PM
Hey Drew. Thanks for dropping by. And thanks for commenting on the gay.com article. Some of the comments there are a bit depressing, aren’t they? But as you say, the level of discourse may just reflect US values and perhaps we are a bit more tolerant of each other here. Sounds like that’s your experience.
But even so, strikes me there’s a lot of work to be done here on community building, if that’s seen as a valid approach to HIV prevention (and I believe it is.) I would be more pessimistic if I hadn’t seen the response from the gay community to Proposition 8 in the States. Clearly, even in the States, our community can be united on some issues. HIV may not be one of them - and perhaps it’s the inherent stigma that surrounds that topic which is the problem - but there’s no reason to give up on it. Frankly, I don’t think we’ve tried hard enough yet, in the States or here in Canada.
Anyway, there is a lot in the gay.com feature to be pleased about too, I suppose. Many wise and supportive comments, don’t you think, amongst the dreck?
December 4, 2008 08:35 PM
Thanks CoachBe, And stick around. I like having you here to chat with.
I’m thinking about writing about HIV and depression in my next post and the impact it has on guys vis-a-vis potentially risky behavior. Do you think that’s a good topic? Or is it too - errmmm - depressing?
December 4, 2008 08:00 PM
I have been following your campaign on HIVstigma.com with interest. I have found the information on your site to be interesting, useful and well presented. I’ve even given your web site out to a few guys who didn’t want to have sex with me when I disclosed my status.
I checked out the comments on Gay.com. I could not believe some of the things that were being written. And we actually call ourselves a “community”. My experience in Montreal and Toronto when I disclose my status has been much more positive than many of the comments I read on Gay.com. It would be easy to say it is a Canadian vs US thing, but I believe it has to do with the more direct way our government and society talk about this issue.
December 4, 2008 07:52 PM
Wow 27 congrats to both of you!
This page provides very interesting statistics. Kind of spells it out for me! I love to dream Bob I hope you do too.
If we have accomplished 25% of our community being infected in what, some 20 years. What do you think we will accomplish in the next 20?
My partner don’t fight any more we have learned from commitment that we just tell each other to go to… and then jump in the sac. Much more fun that way.
Maybe that’s what the boys need, “work it out”.
December 4, 2008 06:41 PM
CoachBe. I’ve been with my partner for 27 years and would you believe we hardly ever fight? I kind of sulk instead, so does he, and then we make up. Proving that conflict resolution isn’t really our strong point, but it seems to work anyway. Takes all sorts, LOL.
On the” fighting it out” that’s going on on the other site though, I suppose that’s healthy too. I wince when I see some of the nastier comments, but at least they’re usually shot down by others. In the end, I think both sides learn from the exchange, and I guess that’s good.
And as for the attention our campaign is getting, in case you want to read more, here’s another website that is talking, nicely, about us: http://ickaprick.blogspot.com/2008/11/margaret-wente-criminalization-of-hiv.html
.
December 4, 2008 06:13 PM
I love the fact that this site has such an impact on the community and around the world.
My philosophy and I will admit it works with my partner and myself is it is better to be fighting it out than not talking at all.
For me it’s about the commitment to work it out no matter how ugly it gets. Every piece of chaos had order to it.
December 4, 2008 03:19 PM
Why thank you muchly, CoachBe.
Have you had a chance to look at the gay.com story that started all this off. The comments continue to fly.
at http://lifestyle.gay.com/2008/12/world-aids-day.html
I thinks it’s interesting how a constructive approach to ending stigma can open up wounds. The overall impact of a feewheeling discussion like that one is positive though, do you think?
December 4, 2008 01:42 PM
I love you Bob that was brilliant.
December 4, 2008 01:12 PM
Hi all Just trying to pull together the threads of where we are going here - and put in my two cents worth..
The discussion here of community building as an overall prevention strategy included the suggestion that disclosure could be a strategic means to that end, both to sex partners and to others. This in turn provoked discussion on whether disclosure to sex partners was an appropriate strategy for all poz guys, when there were other equally valid means of protecting one’s partner.
Along the way it was suggested that advocating for disclosure implies a negative view of those who don’t disclose. And here’s where I say I hope that doesn’t come across, because I doubt that was the intention of anyone here.
My take on all this? Well, I’ve already said that I don’t see disclosure as essential if there are other means taken to protect one’s partner. But how we address disclosure in a wider setting - what we poz guys say to friends, family and even the general public - does perhaps change the playing field in the long run. Because disclosure to sex partners, where it is an issue, can become less of an issue as a result of challenging societal stigma, I think.
Again, coming out publicly is a choice and again, it says nothing about those who don’t make that choice It’s a choice not all of us have the luxury of making. I’ve always acknowledged that I’m in a position of privilege in being able to do so. But it doesn’t stop me suggesting that outing oneself is a strategy to combat stigma that’s at least worth thinking about for those who can. I mean the whole gay rights movement has been built on a similar theme.
If you want to see how it can be done, check out Brian’s blog.
But anyway, I think the topic of community building is a fruitful one to explore in the context of HIV prevention, and clearly it isn’t all about disclosure. Focussing on disclosure, in fact, suggests it’s the task just of poz guys to make a difference here. My take is that’s a very limited view of community, because my community includes neg guys too and we need community-building strategies that involve all of us.
Waddya think?
December 4, 2008 10:02 AM
R:
I agree totally we need to honor all choices.
What does that mean for those who choose not to disclose or choose not to protect themselves?
December 4, 2008 09:51 AM
“why would you suggest that there is necessarily some contradiction at work?”
I may not have made it clear, but what I really mean to say is that we should promote as many strategies as possible to keep neg and poz men healthy mentally and emotionally, and that both disclosure and non-disclosure fit into those strategies. And my point is that to support both strategies should not be seen as a contradiction. Some discussion I see argues that in a hierarchy of health strategies, disclosure is always a better or more ethical choice. To me that’s problematic.
December 4, 2008 09:43 AM
One more thing Roger acknowledgment is an empowering structure.
December 4, 2008 09:42 AM
Rodger:
I wish to acknowledge it sounds like your choices are serving the greater community.
Some people are not in the position to make those choices.
I believe this campaign is focused on the stigma that influences rates of infection.
What I do not hear in what you are saying is “Risk of transmission” I applaud you!
I too will and have opted not to disclose however If this is my choice I make sure that the chance if infection is as minimal as can be.
I operate from the presupposition that all people are whole and perfect they way we are.
I also operate from the presupposition that we all have changes we desire to make in our lives.
What Coaching does is helps people create awareness that some choices will lead to unsupportive or undesired outcomes.
It is about structures and examining the disempowering structures that allow for undesirable outcomes. We support people in creating new structures that empower people to create desirable outcomes.
What is that desirable outcome that is not for a coach to decide but rather it is the choice of the individual.
Thanks for joining this conversation.
December 4, 2008 09:36 AM
Rodger, I think it’s great that this works well for you. But clearly, there are a lot of PHAs out there–as the campaign itself indicates–that need greater support in their efforts to disclose. And since this campaign is about promoting healthy and productive contexts in which disclosure can help protect others, why would you suggest that there is necessarily some contradiction at work? I guess I’m not quite following your argument.
December 4, 2008 09:28 AM
“The philosophy is that if we support PHAs in creating fulfilling more meaningful lives we will build self confidence to take bigger risks in disclosure and protecting our HIV- peers.”
Here’s the thing though. My life is very fulfilled and meaningful and I am a quite self-confident and actualized person who cares about and makes significant efforts to protect men without HIV. And I don’t opt to disclose. There is nothing deficient in me that needs further development in order to be capable of disclosure. I choose to protect my partners, and I choose not to disclose. There is no contradiction here, and there is no change that is missing from my life.
December 4, 2008 09:23 AM
Hi Anonymous at 9:02 AM
I would like to acknowledge your perspective of the change PHAs need to make in themselves.
I wish to hold that thought in a place of Honor.
Their is a new area that is being created for PHAs this program is being called POZ Prevention.
The philosophy is that if we support PHAs in creating fulfilling more meaningful lives we will build self confidence to take bigger risks in disclosure and protecting our HIV- peers.
Ironically this is the basis of Life Coaching.
I know that Coach David is advocating for the coaching model to be used for POZ prevention.
He is working with the AIDS Bureau.
Personally I could not agree more.
This simple act of acknowledging is fundamental to coaching.
December 4, 2008 09:05 AM
Hi Bob,
I acknowledge your passion and patience for this subject. Also I wish to acknowledge your willingness to look at this subject from another perspective.
In my practice on average I acknowledge my clients about 10 times in one hour. It creates some powerful work.
Anonymous:
I would like to acknowledge your perspective and I agree this does not mean that the people that do not disclose are dishonest.
For me, I prefer to pay attention to what is working rather than what is not working IT IS HARD even for me.
Acknowledgment as I said has to be relevant and real. If the person was not brave or honest but rather they were Bold and receptive then we acknowledge that truth the verb will reflect the action.
Bob:
I leave you with a question..
What is the difference between community building and community change?
December 4, 2008 09:02 AM
Hey Bob, nice to see the discussion going in this direction. Not so much about community-building, I guess, as about people other than potential sexual partners playing a helpful (if not key) role in making disclosure easier for positive guys. I think it really speaks to not only the importance of collective efforts in this campaign, but also the broader context in which positive people must live their lives.
December 4, 2008 08:15 AM
“But I also think it IS right and do-able for many people who don’t do it.” For me this is a highly personal call and the suggestion involves a lot of assumptions.
I think it’s a dangerous line to tread when some people become practically evangelical around disclosure (not saying that’s happening here but it is common).
Yes we should celebrate the honesty and bravery of people who can afford to disclose—but take extreme care that we are not implying in this that those who do not disclose are the opposite—dishonest and cowardly.
December 4, 2008 07:03 AM
CoachBe. Interesting that in talking about acknowledging each other, we’ve shifted in to a discussion of community-building. That seems a bit removed from this campaign theme of battling stigma, except that it’s one very real way, I think to tackle HIV prevention. But a difficult one.
Wait, something there triggered me to re-look at the campaign opening video - the black t-shirt guy that you see when you first log on to this site. And he does say “lets learn how to keep each other safe” and “help unite our community“. So it’s there.
Anyway, you’re right, I think to focus, on the power of acknowledgement as an important step in the community building process. How to model that? Well, I think in the context of HIV stigma, you’ve found the answer. First, as poz guys, we acknowledge ourselves as people living with HIV, whether to our sex partners or to the world, through talking to friends, public speaking - and even appearing on video (which task I think you can relate to.) Secondly, we don’t let those acts of “bravery” go unnoticed - we celebrate them and encourage others to follow that path. Which is kind of what I’m doing here. Again, thank you for acknowledging what we are doing.
Again, as a bit of a proponent of disclosure, I always need to add that it’s not right, or even do-able, for everybody. I’m privileged to be able to do so. But I also think it IS right and do-able for many people who don’t do it. And that’s where the encouragement-and-acknowledgement cycle comes in to play.
Make sense?
December 3, 2008 09:09 PM
Why don’t we give them out more often?
Bob I would like to acknowledge your Powerful question!
I can only imagine but I’ll give it a try if their is a glimmer of truth to it great.
From my perspective I am l so busy searching for success. In the process I forget that by encouraging others, it models the way for them to acknowledge my own growth I need encouragement. On the other hand this leaves feeling unsupported.
My inner critic has a nasty way of keeping me hiding, I need encouragement to come out.
I heard recently Sorry I can not remember the source. Perhaps the ABPO that Most Gay men are looking for belonging. Acknowledgment also fosters and creates that sense of belonging.
Perhaps their is an opportunity to acknowledge all those who have shifted their perspective as a result of this campaign.
I would like to acknowledge you for creating a safe space for me to disclose to you so that I may in return keep you safe from things that you can not possibly understand about living with HIV. Not that HIV stops me from living my life to the fullest.
I thank you all.
Bob How can we as a community model the way for the power of acknowledgment?
December 3, 2008 08:36 PM
You are absolutely right, CoachBe. I think back to all the times I’ve disclosed my status, in a variety of public and private settings, and I could count on the fingers of one hand those occasions when I’ve been thanked for doing so, or acknowledged for doing something at all out of the ordinary.
We all need encouragement and positive strokes; they are great motivators, as I’m sure you as a life coach would confirm. Why don’t we give them out more often?
And yes, lets acknowledge the neg guys who provide safe spaces for poz guys to share freely.
You’ve probably read about the Toronto meeting on disclosure, sex and the law that the Globe and Mail reported on earlier this week. (If not, scan through my past blog entries for the link to the article.) One of the things about the Globe’s coverage that hurt was the complete lack of acknowledgement of the bravery of the PHA’s who spoke up at this public meeting. Instead the press shat on them. Demonstrating, in the process, exactly how NOT to encourage people to disclose, I think.
December 3, 2008 06:20 PM
Hi Bob,
I acknowledge publicly the great work that ACT accomplishes.
I am in constant amazement.
This is an interesting statement “But look at is a kind of glass that’s half full/half empty kind of deal” It is my preference to to look at all the glasses as full.
As humans we are in a constant state of change. It is a matter of choice to decide that this change is needed.
It also takes awareness that the change is being requested.
I also understand that in order for change to happen you need an environment that is positive and affirming.
To reply to your question.
I feel that we all need to practice the skill of acknowledging each others successes in change.
Often we are too quick to move on to the next challenge. We never take the moment or often it is brief, to pause and celebrate the success.
What that may look like?
It has to be sincere.
For individuals When a PHA does disclose acknowledge the honesty and bravery it took to make that change.
For an individual that is negative that creates the environment of safety for disclosure acknowledge that space.
December 3, 2008 04:35 PM
Hey CoachBe. Good to see you here again.
I don’t think you’ll be able to get “the campaign’s” response to that question - not that it isn’t a good one - but hopefully you’ll settle for mine. And I should add that I’ve a very soft spot for ACT. I started my volunteer career with them as the front-desk guy I went on to be a buddy there, which was a formative experience, to say the least.
Anyway, “some people don’t want to change” is a truism that nobody can deny. It’s reality. But look at is a kind of glass that’s half full/half empty kind of deal. If it’s true that some people don’t want to change, it’s also true that some people do, and that some people can. That’s essentially what prevention campaigns like HIVStigma.com bank on, I think. Not necessarily a chance to change everyone’s point of view and/or behaviour, but to hopefully change that of some people.
Is that possible? Sure. Because I see potential for change happening even in myself. I’ve been working on the fringes of this area for some time now but, yep, I’ve have had my views challenged and even changed by the dialogue that’s engaged me on this site. I think if you poke around here, you’ll find other examples of guys admitting to seeing things in different ways too. Even though we think of stigma that’s something as ingrained, right?
Community values are really the sum of their parts, aren’t they? So it’s clearly harder to get communities to adopt different attitudes. Like the old analogy to trying to turn a ship around, it’s possible, of course, but it takes time.
But I’ll turn the question around, CoachBe. I’m particularly interested in seeing if we as a community can change our response to taking care of each other to somethng a little better than we do. Is change that extensive possible, and if so, what do you think our challenges are?
December 3, 2008 12:31 PM
Hey Bob
I recently had a meeting at ACT where I was informed that “some people don’t want to change” As a Life Coach I am fully aware of this simple fact. I would guess that in the reality of this statement. The same could be applied to both organizations and for communities.
Some communities and some some organizations simply don’t want to change.
What is the campaigns position on this statement from ACT? What are the implications of this statement to the work we as a community are doing with this site?
Are our expectations as PHAs too high?
Can we really expect individuals, organizations and communities to change?