The comments on the XTRA website in response to their front page story on criminalization (see my last post) are all over the map, and sometimes heated.  But they’re worth reading by all those interested in stigma and how it pans out - or not - in the real world.. You can find them here: http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/HIV_stigma_radiates_from_behind_the_bench-6193.aspx

Brian has commented on this too today; clearly stories like this tend to hit a lot of nerves. So pardon the duplication between our two blogs.

Anyway, here’s a selection of comments from both sides of the XTRA fence:

Male or female, gay or straight, you deserve to be sentenced for deliberately - or through deliberate negligence - giving your partner a lethal disease.

The very idea of “deliberate” infections should be challenged except in the tiniest number of sociopaths, because it doesn’t really capture what happens when two people of different status have sex.

The vast majority of HIV is spread “non-deliberately” by people who don’t know they have it.

There is a difference between criminal intent and just deplorable action. But I find it hard to sympathize with HIV-positive people who complain that being forced to disclose every time cuts down on the pool of potential sex partners. Too bad! This article talks a lot about the responsibilities of HIV-negative people and virtually ignores the responsibilities of HIV-positive people.

I am so sick of hearing this idea that (being forced to disclose every time cuts down on the pool of potential sex partners). This is not the reason people don’t disclose. The reason we don’t disclose is because you can’t control gossip and everyone around you can treat you differently when they know, from the workplace to the bar to family. It changes your life for the worse and that is not fair. A lot of negative folks say “that’s your opportunity to educate,” but that’s easy for them to say. I know many, many guys who regret how open they have been about their status. It doesn’t make stigma vanish. It makes life harder. Please believe me when I say that the risk of disclosure DOES NOT have to do with being greedy for sex.

I am ashamed that this is what the gay rights movement has degenerated to. Defending a rapist! Stop blaming the victims! It’s not their fault when someone lies to them.

HIV criminalization? That has got to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard. I completely understand that yes this man did and does have a legal obligation to inform his partners about his status. However they knowingly participated in unprotected sex, knowing with all the sexual education in the world and all the advertisements regarding sexual health, that they could have contracted the HIV virus. For them to do so was irresponsible . .”

I’m sure many people would turn down a sexual encounter if they know their potential sex partner has HIV. It should be criminalized - it most definitely is murder. I am truly disgusted that the community is willing to fight this charge.

I’m am a closet HIV-poz guy. It’s the stigma and this kind of stuff (criminalization) that keeps me from coming out. The person who infected me (whom I know) didn’t say anything to me about his status. When I found out I was poz, I didn’t go running to the police. I was an adult who made a bad choice and I accept it.

Note that the comments I’ve selected, and the balance between criminalization supporters and naysayers, pretty well reflects the balance of what’s been posted to the XTRA website. It’s about a 50-50 split, I’d say. I don’t know if that split is representative of the views of the gay community as a whole.  But it strikes me, as an opponent of criminalization (was there ever any doubt?), that a lot of work needs to be done to win the day and persuade the court of public opinion if our own community is so divided on this one.

What’s your take on this?

As a footnote, I remember when this campaign first began, we talked as a group about whether the issue of criminalization was sufficiently relevant to the topic of HIV stigma to devote much attention to it here. Times change and so does our understanding. It’s become readily apparent, in fact, that there are very close links between the two topics, don’t you think? Certainly many of the XTRA commenters readily make the connection.

XTRA’s cover story yesterday was about criminalization, a treatment sympathetic to our cause by Sky Gilbert, which (mostly) hits all the right notes, even though he couldn’t resist criticizing at some length some of our community’s most vocal supporters. You can read the article here: http://www.xtra.ca/public/Toronto/HIV_stigma_radiates_from_behind_the_bench-6193.aspx

Predictably the article has already provoked a flurry of comments on the XTRA website, including the usual fodder for campaigns like ours. “Take the disease spreaders and hang them up” is one quote. Nice!

By chance, I had planned to revisit criminalization here today anyway, given its relationship to stigma, and the fact that it doesn’t seem to want to go away. I’d already noticed that some in our community continue to debate what is a suitable response to people being pilloried for having sex without disclosure.

Is a fairly simple issue becoming overly complicated through neo-conservatism and the power of hot air? To people living with HIV, I don’t see much appetite or even need for debate. Most of us recognize criminalization for what it is - an attack, an affront and a useless, counterproductive prevention tactic, always. From too many others - and I’m not talking about the Margaret Wente’s of this world but some of our “supporters” - the view is often heard that, well, maybe we poz folks need to feel the strong arm of the law, some of the time. Because, we’re told, some of us are “irresponsible”. Some of us are “deliberately infecting others”

Even XTRA raises this spectre in a side-bar,  by characterizng some of us this way,  although thankfully it’s challenged by at least one reader.

I could document where and when I’ve heard this notion of “deliberate infections” countless times, and from whom, but that would win me few friends. But in every discussion I’ve witnessed where criminalization is debated, it always - always - comes up.  Namely, what do we do with “these people” who intentionally infect others, the psychopaths. No matter that this phenomenon is virtually non existent, no matter that the criminal code quite handily deals with intentional harm anyway and doesn’t need laws on disclosure to do that, no matter that the debate on criminalization is not - or should not be - about “deliberate infections” at all, we go down this path ad naseum. It’s depressing.

Sometimes it becomes a stumbling block. I’m saddened that the community doesn’t seem to have a response to criminalization that’s universally accepted. Even the recent Ontario paper that recommended we re-examine the law and identify alternatives - hardly conroversial - gets bogged down in the debate about what to do about those non-existent psychopaths.

To repeat; the law deals with psycopaths already. It worries me that in discussions that should focus on the legal challenges that face normal, sexually active poz guys daily, we end up talking about psychopaths. I think that is very telling about our attitudes to poz folks generally.

It’s also telling that this debate is not usually within the poz community, or hardly involves us at times. We have few forums that would otherwise enable this, we don’t have the equivalent of NAPWA in the States, for instance. So community boards often devoid of poz folks, composed instead of well meaning folks with little knowledge of HIV, talk about us - but don’t get us.   Agency staff, who are better informed but often similarly devoid of poz folks’ involvement, sometimes fall in to the same trap. So perhaps it’s the lapses in implementation of GIPA (greater involvement of people living with HIV) coming home to roost. It’s hard not to notice that decisions about our future and judgements about our conduct sometimes reflect the mainstream views of the general public, which can be less supportive than we would like - rather than being inclusive of a poz view of the world. That’s why talking about the state-sanctioned stigmatization of people like you and me ends up talking about our role as psychopaths.

So I started talking about criminalization and ending up talking about GIPA. But there is a connection, and there is definitely a connection with both to the perpetuation of HIV stigma, don’t you think?

Anyhow, I find the debate on criminalization disheartening and depressing.  One organization is asking me to come and talk to their board, to present a poz guy’s view of criminalization. It’s good that they welcome the dialogue. But honestly, I’m so pissed off with the whole thing, I hardly want to go.  I feel like I’m done with debating it. Some times the weight of oppression - and stigma - does that to you. And that’s not good.

I’ve mentioned a couple of times here that I’d like to think this site is a safe place for honest, open and free ranging discussions about unsafe sex.  But here’s the thing; while I think it can continue to be that place, there are limitations.  And I hate to point fingers, but it’s all the fault of the law.

The HIVstigma.com campaign is aimed at neg guys in the main, but clearly poz guys have much to contribute to these discussions too. In fact poz guys have been frequent visitors here, and have been remarkably generous in sharing their values as well as experiences of living positive. That contribution has and continues to be invaluable. Together, we’ve learned a lot about each other, I think, and that’s very cool.

Now I don’t want to stifle discussion in any way.  But poz guys in particular, it’s important for you to know that, from a legal angle,  admissions of unsafe sex without disclosure are best avoided here, even when left anonymously. SO GUYS, I WANT YOU TO BE CAREFUL.  We can still talk about unsafe sex, disclosure, and even your experiences with it.   But let’s do it in a way that doesn’t incriminate ourselves, or anyone else for that matter. The last thing I want is to see anybody get in to trouble with the law for anything they might say on this site.

I hope folks don’t think that we are trying to sweep the topic of unsafe sex under the carpet. That’s not the case. We know it exists. We know that both some poz and some neg guys sometimes engage in it. We understand why it happens too, because we’ve been there. So we tend to be a non-judgmental bunch here, and some folks don’t like that. Point is we would love to encourage you guys to share here as freely as you want to, without fear of backlash. And we hope you will. But recognize that there are laws in this country - which many of us don’t agree with, but they’re out there nevertheless - which threaten poz guys in ways we haven’t always considered. Including expressing ourselves.  So again, PLEASE BE CAREFUL.

Because we want everybody to stay safe - both health-wise and legal wise - I can share with you that the campaign is getting legal advice.  The question to be resolved is what’s the best way to make sure that talking about our experiences of unsafe sex here on this site is as safe as humanly possible.   We’ll keep you informed for sure.

My view has always been that we as a community need to look after each other. I’d be interested in what others have to say on this - and how that applies to real life situations like this.  Because this is really where the rubber hits the road.

It’s exceedingly weird, in my view, that poz folks are being charged - and convicted - for having what strikes me as consensual sex. Of course the courts have ruled it’s not consensual when there is no disclosure and where there is “significant risk” of transmission. It gets complicated when we look at what constitutes “significant risk” but what’s clear, I think, is that fucking without a condom would qualify. (For more on this go here : http://www.hivstigma.com/law.php )

We get emails here on HIVstigma.com. One reader was horrified that we would bring this legal angle up, and certainly didn’t like the language we’ve used to describe the law. Much too insensitive, was his view. (I don’t agree, but I’m honestly sorry that he was hurt.)

I guess what we didn’t express was that spokespeople for the HIV community don’t like the fact that poz sex is being criminalized.  Not an appropriate intervention, stigmatizes poz people, counterproductive, acts as a deterrent to testing, they say. I happen to agree. And if the courts don’t stigmatize poz folks enough, the press certainly does. ‘There is no excuse for the wanton, reckless, self-indulgent behaviour ” is a typical reaction. It’s worse if you’re a woman.

We can debate this at length - and I will, if you want - but let’s bring this argument to the real world. Sex is fun, but it can be a complicated business, and so can how, when and with whom we disclose. The courts say that criminalization is necessary as a deterrent, in effect a systemic attempt to force us poz folks to disclose. But I want to know whether you think the prospect of going to jail is starting to enter in to the decision-making equation.  Of anyone.

So my question to you - and this is directed at poz guys in particular, is: do you think the law on disclosure - admittedly perhaps not well understood - shapes gay men’s decision making in any way at all?  Is it becoming a factor in whether or not they disclose and/or what kind of sex they have?

Neg Guys? What’s your take on this?

I’d like to think this is a safe space to discuss these issues freely. But I’ve deliberately chosen to raise the question using the third person. So poz guys in particular, please feel free to do the same - and don’t say anything here which might incriminate anyone. OK?